The three offenses are being angry without a cause, calling someone 'raca', and calling someone 'fool'. Kent thank you for your comment. Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah undergo vengeance in "eternal fire", and Ezekiel says that Sodom and her daughters will one day be restored to their former estate. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? When death is destroyed the only thing left is life. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". I don't see why a citizen of God's city should go out, but if they did, they might well see that. If that seems unfair in your eyes, so be it . If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. 66:24?. I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? It was a sanitation dump because the city of Jerusalem was above the valley and the filth was allowed to flow into the valley. "age-during" isn't a word but if you are insisting on such literalist readings, you should be consistent and take things literally. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). Thats it. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. Is. and rules called canons. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources. garbage heap, junk heap, junk pile, refuse heap . Thanks for posting. What early church fathers "got into trouble" with universal salvation? The soul that sinneth it shall DIE, not be given eternal life to burn forever and ever and ever. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. And why should it? I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. [however,] there is no evidence for this claim; it can be traced to a commentary on the book of Psalms written by Rabbi David Kimhi in the early thirteenth century CE. "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". Why were heretics (if you believe that universal salvation is heresy)allowed to do this? Check out Matt 25:46. This was a place where the fires were kept burning all the timenight and day. Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. PDF. The Gray Waste (more fully, the Gray Wastes of Hades; also, Hades, The Three Glooms, Hope's Loss or The Nadir) is a strongly neutral evil aligned plane of existence. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. During Jesus' time, it was the city's garbage burner. But no matter what they eat, do not die, THEY LEAVE WHAT THEY ARE EATING TO BECOME A FLY OR MOTH. McBride has more details and the sources in his post. He just told his audience that if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. We seem to just read right past those verses. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Kolasin has as it's root meaning "to prune" something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it. It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. About the other direction he didn't ask. Of hhe three valleys below Jerusalem, Hinnom lies dead center below the Old City and temple. 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From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. For some reason this comment got swallowed up yesterday: "You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. If they contradict e.o., they contradict e.o. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. Gehenna -- the Valley of Hinnom -- was indeed a valley outside Jerusalem. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. Salvation does not have to be eternal. Nice work. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". Only the latter is grounds for personal condemnation. Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. It can't. It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian temporary correction/discipline. Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Jesus actually never talked about eternal torment. It is clear: Gehenna is hell, not a trash dump. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. "Worms" in Isaiah 66:24 is towlah, and Gesenius notes that this word is especially used to denote worms that feed on FLESH, although it is also used to talk about worms in bread and the worm that killed Jonah's shade plant. I would look at a phrase like this and wonder how anyone who didn't want to be deceived could think that it was talking about anything less than the rest of eternity: . If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. Thank you. Ezekiel doesn't utter any either and he doesn't even touch on anything linked to "eternal fire". be anathema!) For example, eternal salvation doesn't mean God is saving us daily (rather an eternal result of a one time event) just as eternal judgment not mean God is tormenting the lost daily, rather the one time event (the second death) had eternal result as well. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. In any case, we will provide honest advice. The moth does die. Out of six major "seminaries" ". Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. Some people use this historical tidbit to make a point either to paint a picture how foul, vivid and terrible hell would be, or alternately to suggest that there is no eternal hell, and the references Jesus makes to the fires of hell and torment was simply a reference to this burning trash pile. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. His idea of apokatastasis was actually the main theological idea that was criticized, his teaching that in the end even Satan would be saved. Case in point, Jude 1:7 it says that Sodom and Gomorrah served as example of those who will suffer the punishment of "eternal fire". to fully consume all things dumped there. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. 9:28 or was that Is. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Connection between Greek word used for "Hell," and garbage dumb. Ive always thought that this was an established fact. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. The idea is that the Valley of Hinnon laid just south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls,and that all the refuse and waste from Jerusalem was burned there, and it was pretty much the most disgusting and horrifying place on earth. What church are you talking about? Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! Second, the whole passage is disproportionate that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . Now I know why I never found any. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. Neovia group's Profile, Revenue and Employees. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. One is kolasin, the other timoria. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. Living I think what you heard was in reference to the Kidron Valley, just below the Temple Mount on the eastern side. (v.23) Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.". The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. Are you serious? The common view today is that Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Click the card to flip . The purpose is to build your discernment when people say bibley things, and not let evangelical historical sound bites lead you to repeat them. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. A longer one, written by Sinclair Ferguson: Universalism and The Reality of Eternal Punishment: The Biblical Basis of the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. Can you confirm whether this was traditional practice? Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. Its a blank slate until this commentary pops up. They might as well say nothing on this issue. Eternal life doesn't mean that there is no time just as it doesn't mean there is no space. He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. Then he mentions the case of those who would cross from the place of suffering over to "Abraham's bosom". Most did not. Rome? The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". En contraire. A Christian in error is still a Christian.]. Mk. He claims they are already undergoing it. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. Is that decree retroactive? There are a dozen parables by Christ talking about salvation and punishment I can't think of one which has one first being shut out and then being admitted after all not the foolish virgins with their lamps, not the Rich Man begging poor Lazarus, not the one being thrown out because of his not wearing a wedding garment etc. . Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called Valley of Slaughter (The Holy City and Gehenna, JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". Theres also no archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the Baal Temple. There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash. Brimstone used to be added to fuel the incineration. He is the creator that loves his creation so much that he gave his only Son who was the only sacrifice Holy enough for the sins of mankind who defeated death that we may have the hope of everlasting life! Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Fears becalmed. You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. "Gehenna (Gei Hinnom) became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, . Neither says anything about eternal punishment being only temporary. What church are you talking about? Same with "aionian life". The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. "The God of the Eons" is a statement of fact, not of limitation. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.". But "the flesh" has nothing to dod with worms and fire. UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. ", No one. [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. This practice was carried out . All who accept it. ), the Hinnon Valley was condemned as an unholy place. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. A prophecy in his book that has thus far not come true should not be used to build doctrine on. It is never used by Jesus, and is only found in three places in the new testament, Acts 22:5 and 26:11 where Paul is talking about his 'punishment' of Christians before his conversion, and in Hebrews 10:29 where the context again is between those who adhere to the old covenant in opposition to the new, only this time the tables are turned. Where is the record of an uproar over them? If not there, where? If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. You simply over-reading certain passages. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. For more details, see copyright information. Voting for the Political Party of Infanticide in 2020 is Great Says JD Greear. "What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one.". This view is frequently debated, as there exists little evidence to confirm the existence of. You can also spare us quasi-racist ideas like >>legalistic "glasses" that came into the church from the Latin converts<<, Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Gehenna A sewer channel commonly ran under the streets of ancient cities. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. You are right about the two Gregory's too. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. The fire never went out. I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. I've used this illustration many times. If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. And as you know from experience, a dump without flies is a dump without garbage. But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. You would think this would have been addressed early on if the case was clear cut and universal salvation was heresy. So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks know as 'brimstone' were . You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. It is possible to use a word, like aionian, to make a statement of fact, without being forced to use it as a statement of limitation.". The Hebrew word is used in relation to people. True enough. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. I thought, Anon, you didn't have time. As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381.
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